Curse

shardfenix · Oct 05, 2006, 11:30 AM // 11:30

At night, when I play, the metagame is iway, iway, vim, bloodspike, vim, vim, iway, balanced (omfg), vim, bloodspike, bloodspike, vim, iway, bloodspike.

I have played in the morning sometimes, and I see a lot more balanced groups on the other side of the map. However, more than half the teams I fight are still iway, vim, or bloodspike. The only thing 6v6 will do is nerf caster spikes and make smite more prevalent. The second week of 6v6 play will be as folows:

thumper smite, thumper smite, vim, iway, vim, thumper smite, bloodspike, iway, vim, smite, smite, smite.

If you want to change the metagame, nerf the broken skills. Don't turn HA into team arenas.

Mystic- · Oct 05, 2006, 12:49 PM // 12:49

This 6v6 change in my opinion is a big mistake. In that 4 day event I managed to get 1,500 fame in just two days! All I played against or played with was mainly degen. More then 90% of the builds was degen because it was so overpowered. Now with the new skill "toxicity" or whatever its called degen is even MORE overpowered AND we have a non-elite bleeding skill. 6 people to spread degen on is extremely easy and I found degen to be more common then VIM. Me and many other "elitist" PvP players would rather play against Blood Spike, VIM and IWAY every map because it's so damn easy to beat if you know what you are doing. 6v6 will just eliminate holding ability which means it will take even longer to get fame, (*sigh* no more 40 fame wins

) and will just damage the meta-game more then it already has. As someone said earlier if this really was done to stop these builds why not just add a 6v6 arena that also gives fame rather then take away 8v8. Many people who I enjoyed playing with alot are leaving the game because of this, and a guild I enjoyed playing with disbanded (R.I.P sOap). As Jimmy said in a post that was deleted earlier how would you like it if the PvE players where made to farm FoW or do their precious quests with 6 people. They would not be very happy people, so why do this to the PvP players? If there was any reason for many people to have enjoyed that 6v6 event it was because of double fame and NOT the 6v6. Also by lowering the amount of people in a team, guild groups have been dealt a major blow. Less slots means less people playing which leads to more people waiting. You can't just expect two guild groups to be going, what if the people in the other team of 6 can't lead and therefor won't be able to play. This will just make newer people come and start playing Heroes' Ascent but you will be loosing more then you are gaining. gg anet.

Lykan · Oct 05, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

I agree HA guilds will feel this the most as the majority are a group of around 8-12 core players who alternate when time shedules and real life allows, I can see many guilds splitting or getting smaller or having people leaving just because people will have to be left out of the team.

4thVariety · Oct 05, 2006, 01:19 PM // 13:19

when was the last time any of you instructed a F-0 player? and even if you did it, you most likely would have instructed him with a "fail-safe" tactic whith minimized required ability and maximized chance for success. hmm, why do they all use those same three builds?

as for the pvp game modes itself. it is not that they are particularly overcrowded with people eager to integrate new players. turn off your title, pretend that you have little experience. I bet you won't find a group anytime soon (outside your alliance).

State of PvP is more like this:

GvG: Depends on your guild/alliance. Abandon all RL if you want to get to top.
RA: Random, totally. Feel free to play bad and smacktalk anytime
TA: Train your GvG Split team tactics here.
Aspenwood: "Why isn't he moving?"
Jade Quarry: "When does it start?"
Alliance Battle: The happy zone of uncomplicated pvp fun, blind invites and decent waiting times. Maybe this is because it LACKS a title tracking your success??? Noobs welcome anytime.
Hero's Ascent: If you are new, nobody will want you. If you want to get in anyway, go seek one of the newbie training-courses fansites offer, socialize with the other trainees there, fight your way up from there.

the people playing pvp religiously are still a very small portion of the gaming population. just compare the active pvp districts and the active pve districts anytime. Even the Temple of the Ages ALONE has more active districts than all of the PvP islands. and those runs certainly take at least as long as an HoH attempt. with that in mind, Anet couldn't care less about the people who have set up the elitist access rules to HA-groups in the past. there are hordes of potential PvP players around, all they need is a chance to get in.

reducing the group size is increasing the chances for newbies, since each of them is now only required to find 5 other willing players. who cares if some pro-gamer builds are somewhat powerful, even newbies will adapt (the are human y'know)

McUH · Oct 05, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimTimTimma

Spikes are still possible, just not the gay kind like blood spike

No. This is the one which still remains possible for 2 reasons. It has backline incorporated into spikers so they will not become so vulnerable as other spikes. Also blood-spike is no really spike but pressure aimed to wear down your monks, I seldom see blood spike to kill anyone as long as you have half decent infuser and he has energy (and health) for infusing.
Anyhow I am not sure why blood spike should bother you. It is almost useless unless on holding situation, almost always aiming at HoH skip hoping they can capture somehow and hold then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimTimTimma

Last I checked, 2 monks hold up 6 players, so it shouldn't be hard to hold up 4. This claim has no root, and is completely 100% random hate

Not sure what you want to say. I never said 2 monks are inadequate for 6 man team. I said that when you bring 3 monks now, the game will take forever, due to less offense. If you took 4 monks in 8v8, the difference would not be really that great, since there were builds which punished you for too much defense (like spikes).
What I fear is that Spike will be lost from metagame and that will in turn allow defensive teams to flourish. And that in turn will bring long matches where the victory is decided by who gets bored first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimTimTimma

You are suggesting high level play is based on the number of players involded. WRONG, high level play is, just that. High level of play. TA can be considered high level of play because there ARE good guilds/teams in there and they play at a respectable level. Anything involving TEAMS BEING FORMED involves higher level of play because there is strategy being implimented and attempted at being executed.

Now we don't understand each other prob. I agree that high level play requires players who play well, and yes, if the best players play in TA seriously, it's level can become quite high. Still I don't think many of such players play there, or play there seriously (i.e. playing for win in TA and not say trying some splitting team for GvG). We will never know, we have no observe there, but from those few times I was there I was not really impressed. And I fear quality of players in 6v6 HA will decrease (while maybe numbers will increase, at least from start).
Anyhow, even if top players did TA, it would not be as high level as 8v8 HA when they play there. And that is because 4v4 (and new 6v6) is simpler than 8v8 - you need less field awareness, you have less targets to watch for etc etc. It WILL become simpler.
And don't get me wrong. I am not implying that say 16v16 would be better than 8v8. There are lines beyond which it is becoming too complex to grasp and thus chaotic. I feel 8v8 is good balance in this equation (simplicity-complexity-chaos).

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimTimTimma

Nice knowing ya.

Lol. You can't know if it is nice knowing me since you don't know me. Most people don't even know themselves...

Mc

Sagius Truthbarron · Oct 05, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

Maybe i'll go run Dual Smite and get that rank 3 now that HA= 6v6. Personally, I think that if you just ran a 6 monk out-last team, you'd dominate HoH.

Yeah, except for relic runs.. Alter holding.. And just about anything past the first 2 maps.

Legendary Shiz · Oct 05, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

I guess this explains why they nerfed smite at the last skill update.

I don't hate this, but I do wish they would have created a new arena instead of reformatting HA.

Senator Tom · Oct 05, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26

I don't really like it...it was only popular that one weekend because it was double fame...

Sagius Truthbarron · Oct 05, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by McUH

Now we don't understand each other prob. I agree that high level play requires players who play well, and yes, if the best players play in TA seriously, it's level can become quite high. Still I don't think many of such players play there, or play there seriously (i.e. playing for win in TA and not say trying some splitting team for GvG). We will never know, we have no observe there, but from those few times I was there I was not really impressed. And I fear quality of players in 6v6 HA will decrease (while maybe numbers will increase, at least from start).

90% of the HA population has been idiotic gimick build since the game came out. The serious "skillful" players mostly play GvG. But anyway, do quality players really matter? Its about qaulity team, and most of the rank 6/9+ people out there want to lead, not be led.

LittleBaby · Oct 05, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

GUYS!!!!! U ALL IGNORING ONE THING!!! sorry for caps but i c NOBODY talking about the maps improvemetns.

Alleji · Oct 05, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleBaby

GUYS!!!!! U ALL IGNORING ONE THING!!! sorry for caps but i c NOBODY talking about the maps improvemetns.

For several reasons:

- We don't know what the improvements will be.
- Anet will certainly f*** something up and break the maps for at least a couple days.
- The 6v6 change is a lot more relevant and controversial than map changes. I'm sure almost everyone would welcome the map changes, but a lot of people don't like 6v6.

Theus · Oct 05, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Perhaps the introduction of random environmental conditions?

Wildkat · Oct 05, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Forming 6v6 monk boredomway.Need a lifebarrier monk,a lifebond monk,a blight monk,and 3 other healers.Expect matches to last over an hr.Why worry about nr and such when you don't have many people to bond.....Think there are gimmick builds now.Nothing will come close to 6v6....

jana_the_stranger · Oct 05, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

yeah HA will be even more full with noobs

why not 5vs5 so i only needed the 4 henchies to make a build, cause i know they are better then most ranked iway,vimway....players

the event was popular because of the double fame and because vimway was so strong, so new people and noobs could gain much fame.

Orbberius · Oct 05, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

So are all the shitty HA players going to pack up their shit and leave? 'Cause that'd just be great.

Sluggs · Oct 05, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdbeau

All the time I've put into HA is going to be completely wasted and irrelevant by this change.

All time spent in a game is completely wasted to begin with

Sarevok Thordin · Oct 05, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by jana_the_stranger

yeah HA will be even more full with noobs

why not 5vs5 so i only needed the 4 henchies to make a build, cause i know they are better then most ranked iway,vimway....players

the event was popular because of the double fame and because vimway was so strong, so new people and noobs could gain much fame.

Fame gained with VIM isn't true fame. It's just "I can read Guildwiki" points.

Brewski101 · Oct 05, 2006, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Okay, let me start out by saying I would be considered an HA Noob by most of you. (Rank 2) I've been playing GW for about 10 months now. I'm a relatively casual player, putting in a couple hours a few nights a week.

I rarely HA, and the biggest reason is that it's not worth the effort. Rank is hard to get when you only play casually, and low rank keeps you from getting on decent teams. People trying to learn how to play take nearly constant abuse both when trying to find a group, and in game. If you try to rank farm your way up so that you don't have to take the crap, you get mocked even more for playing farming builds.

So when it comes down to it, HA is no fun for a Noob. The only way to get to the "fun" part is to slog through hours and hours of abuse and annoyance. Given my limited play time, it's never been worth it. Most of my guild/alliance is in the same boat.

All that said, I have to say I think the switch is a good idea. Not because I think 6v6 is better than 8v8, or that it's going to kill certain builds or make others better. It's good because it shakes up an area of the game that become elitist and stale. For a brief while, it makes it so that it's possible for Noobs to get in on the action while everyone is trying to adjust to the changes.

Will there be new gimmick builds that dominate the area? Sure. ANet will continue nerfing skills and builds to adjust to it.
Will this kill certain build types? Absolutely. Good teams should be able to adapt their builds, or come up with new ones.
Will this make the "Elite" players angry? Sure, in a lot of cases it will. Anyone who's on top has a knee jerk reaction against change. Anything that changes might knock you off the top. The good ones will learn to adapt, and will stay on top, or get back on top in no time.
Will this make it easier for Noobs to HA? Yes. Good. From ANet's perspective, how can this be bad? GW is built on the idea of always getting new players. With no monthly fees, the company will die if it caters only to it's existing players.
Will some experienced players leave? Yes. Some. Most will complain for a while and then adapt. 1-2 years from now when ANet changes the format again, most of those people will complain about that change too.

Over and over again, ANet has proven they are dedicated to keeping the game fresh and new. When areas of the game get annoying, boring, or dominated by one group of people, they step in to update and keep the game going. This move is consistent with everything they've said and done in the past, and I assume they'll continue to do it in the future.

I know it's annoying when it's "your" area of the game that gets changed, but look at it as part of the wider picture. If GW becomes a game dominated by a set group of people, they'll go out of business, and GW will go away forever. If you honestly think that's preferable to changes like this, then you need to find a different game.

Just my .02. Let the flaming begin.

Duly Thankful · Oct 05, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Good post Brewski. Common sense ftw!

McUH · Oct 05, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

90% of the HA population has been idiotic gimick build since the game came out. The serious "skillful" players mostly play GvG. But anyway, do quality players really matter? Its about qaulity team, and most of the rank 6/9+ people out there want to lead, not be led.

Maybe, still I think it is less than 90% (maybe because playing in Europe times?). But anyway, after change it is going to be even more. Not to mention that facing such idiotic gimick is at least some challenge, facing "random balanced group" is just a joke.

And also, not all the gimicks are always same. R-spikes can have different backlines and different spike skills, sames go for most usuall builds. And while they are gimmick, I would not say it is so bad, because there are quite lot of them, so it is not like facing the same things all the time, at least when I play. Just to name some I face quite often there in 8v8 HA:

- Blood spike (there are at least 2 common different builds)
- R-spike (varies quite a lot, esp. in backline and support)
- IWAY (again different IWAY builds out there)
- VIM (while basicaly same, there are some differences, esp. in warriors, though it is some time since I seen W/Me blackout there)
- smiteball
- CG builds (something like balance with 2+ CG)
- hex pressure (rarer but are out there, I like to run one too)
- Flesh golem factory (or whatever it is called)
- balanced (I admit most of them are random pug-s, so it is like joke)
- henchways (yup, they can bite, dont underestimate :-) )

Ocassionaly there is still some AoE smite build too, but very rare now from my experience.

Well, I think it is not small number of builds, and while you can call them gimmick, they among themselves have variations and despite what many people may think, they evolve.

I am afraid, that in 6v6 it will end up worse not long time since it started.

And to all people who say it is completely boring. Maybe stop playing it for fame and start having fun. Try different ideas, builds, skills not used, just for fun. You will not hold Halls maybe, but it is NOT the objective. Objective is to have fun there. If YOU play gimmick all the time, I understand you are bored to hell. For me it is not so boring, because even facing same builds (which have quite enough variety) brings different experience, depending in what you play with.

PS: Ever tried dual-IW smite with muddy terrain and snares ? It was quite fun before smite-nerf and we even almost won halls once. And I did have some new R0 players there with me :-)